There is another who is the mediator between man and God. Jesus prays to the Father. John 5:18 implies that if God is his father, then He is equal to God correct? But this is an interpretation so we don’t set foundations on interpretations. You pastor are denying the Son of God. If there is one God Who created the heavens and the earth and Jesus created the heavens and the earth, then Jesus is the one God who created the heavens and the earth. The Spirit isn’t even mentioned. God does not anoint himself. If God died for our sins it is a false Gospel because the whole thing is a lie because God cannot die. I had already failed to do that and gave up on it. Two witnesses. lol. It is great to see a biblical interpretation of Christ that is well articulated. if Jesus was a Jew then he should agree with Judaism’s core creed? Hi, thanks for the comment! I think your main argument boils down to Jesus is not God, whether it be the Unitarian view or the Trinitarian view. Jesus said…. If this scripture doesn’t mean exactly what it says the Gospel is a lie and God is a liar as well. If you look up the word “deliverer” in an English bible, you will see that it applies to people as well as Yahweh Himself. al.). Christ is His own Father and His own Son. How would you explain verses that suggest Jesus as God or at least God like? The volume of scriptures indicating that Jesus and God are separate beings is overwhelming. him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know(God did all the works through Jesus) His Son!! The power, authority, glory…. The Father is not the Son 5. That language does not appear anywhere else in scripture so we can’t decipher it with any confidence. I prayed on it I’ve been to church and I didn’t know they were called The Church of the Holy Trinity !!! Muslims often state that the Trinity doctrine lacks both common sense and logic. Some of the problems of the Trinity arise from confusion between the internal life and nature of the Trinity itself and the external life or "self-revelation" of God. Stated differently, God is one in essence and three in person. WOW finally , a person that thought the exact way ,almost verbatim ,word-for-word ,that’s been troubling me so long they’re ,the Holy Trinity never ever sat right with me. Your not thinking deeply enough about what happened. But insofar as it posits “three persons” (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), who are “one God,” it appears as inconsistent as the claim that 1+1+1=1. It is the basis of Christian community. finally the truth explained to the point where they cannot debated and I’m tired of debating whoever said debating is healthy never watched a presidential debate while at the end of the debate the two candidates are ready to kill and choke each other or never watch C-SPAN debating is not healthy it divides in causes hate, I just have one question though can somebody explain Genesis quote and with God was the word and the word became flesh I know that’s Jesus real name the word blue letter logos that’s the only thing the trinitarians keep bringing up and so their main argument that God and Jesus are one and they’re both gods because and with them was the word and the Word was God. Omniscience is a necessary property of deity, so if Jesus was God he would have been omniscient, but according to him, he wasn’t! It says God anointed Jesus not himself. Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. You’ve actually mis-defined both the Trinity and Unitarian up above as well. Lets get even more witnesses. Pastor all your doing is wresting all those (few) scriptures your quoting which don’t confess that Jesus is God at all. Christians of that time where becoming evermore numerous, though most at that time were still mainly of Judean background, and this alone was a problem. Question: "What are some popular illustrations of the Holy Trinity?" (Isaiah 44:6, Revelation 1:7-11, 17-18) I’m not advocating or promoting a “trinity” of three “persons.” I’m declaring that Jesus is the fullness of the godhead (Divinity) and that he is God all by himself. If the Persons are truly distinct, with separate consciousness, wills, memories and emotions, and IS this blaspheming against God? Now, don’t get me wrong! chapters 2 and 3 the Testimony of Jesus through the angel (Prophet) he sent ends with “He that has an ear let him hear what the SPIRIT says to the churches”. Thrust your arm inside someone and there right there looking at you. As far as Thomas that is not an identity scripture it is about believing Jesus was alive and had been resurrected. Jesus is the Mediator between God and man. Geee didnt Paul have it right? He is the image of his Father/God. Among those who uphold the doctrine of the Trinity, few know much about it beyond the “God in three per­sons” formula. . Most Dangerous thing you can believe. 1st John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. LK 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. This is also what Christ meant when he said, “if you don’t believe I am he you will die in your sins”. This is also saying you do not believe so your calling God a liar because you don’t believe he is his only begotten son. only once heretics came did were they forced to articulate it, this assumes the Trinity to prove the Trinity (circular reasoning), look at history…observe all the councils and controversy, 381: Constantinople I (is the holy spirit the third person? 1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. May God bless you seven fold for preaching and believing this truth. It can get really confusing and it may come as a shock to you but the first century believers did not hold to this doctrine at all. Who is he condemning? Same essence. St. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Sentence 6: I really don’t understand what a Unitarian is. I just knew it was Christian and as soon as I heard Holy Trinity I got up and walked out not because I’m so full of wisdom and I’m a smart guy because I’m not and when people claim that I am , I say no no I’m not it is the HOLY SPIRIT , given me the discernment !! Not once in the entire new testament writings is he mentioned at the greetings or beginnings. No longer equal to God, but obedient. The Trinity, which is identified as a “mystery”, has two ultimate conclusions: Yeshua, Yahweh and the Spirit are all the same being or we have three gods. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. “God with us” or Emmanuel simply means “God is with us” as in the context “if God be for us, who can be against us”. Oooooooh pastor your are playing the most dangerous game there is. If you do not believe God has a Son, or if your doctrine can produce an idea that God is a liar and only pretended to be his own Son, then you might want to go back to the drawing board. Genesis records that Elohim SPOKE everything into existence. Jesus did not say yes you are correct I am God. The One True God is Identified in the Bible as a singular "I", "Me", "He", "Him" and "Who." And not everybody at our assembly sees it this way. It’s already received more than 77k views. Interview 51 Dale Tuggy Post-Debate Review, Did Christians Believe in the Trinity before the…, Interview 50 Michael Brown Post-Debate Review, 160 Refuting Michael Brown’s Case for the Trinity 2, 175 Did Christians Believe in the Trinity before 325…. If God is a “he” not a “they” then he is a singular person not multiple persons right? . I’ll try to cut it short. Please look at the salutations and closings of every letter of Paul. There are a lot more verses like these. John 17:5 He was fully glorified before when he was with the father in the beginning. How can it get any plainer. The Holy Spirit is God 4. (Isa 9:6-7 Brenton). 3. “” THE GENTELS!!!!!!!! Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. The same cultural position exists in the Philippians verse. when Christ is the mediator and you have a Holy Trinity you take the mediator away and then they say the verse ,, for me and my father are one, yes!! Such revelations in the tradition of the Church can only be indirectly encountered thr… I hope you took the time to watch our video as many of those questions are answered there. how would this work in a hierarchy? I understand. That poor holy spirit guy he just doesnt get any respect at all does he. Do you see the problem arising? There are two verses in the Revelation that no one seems to want to deal with, but I am going to remind you of them. The doctrine of the Trinity is central to mainstream Christianity. Juan 17:5 John says the WORD became flesh and dwelt among us. Penalty for this belief? When interpreting scripture, you never start with a sod. Paul says Yeshua is the firstborn of all creation. Sorry guys its time for a little Harsh!! Ok now you go to the other scriptures and study from there on that basic truth. Yeah, Marc, almost every page of the Gospels makes the Trinity impossible. If Jesus is God, he is both Israel's father and husband, i.e. What does the scripture say? Isaiah 43:11 What everyone here forgets, or doesn’t seem to understand, or know is that God said he was the SAVIOR to “all ends of the earth.” (Isaiah 45:22) God tells Moses, “I Am.” (Exodus 3:14) Jesus declares that “Before Abraham was, I Am.” (John 8:58) The Bible tells us there’s only one Father. The doctrine of the Trinity means that there is one God who eternally exists as three distinct Persons — the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These definitions express three crucial truths: (1) the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons, (2) each Person is fully God, (3) there is only one God.The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons. Problem of The Week . If it is god you have seen god.) Enrique, you only replied to my responses and not to the study assignment. No. 22:6 and Rev. Gods (Yahweys) name forever is The God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. THINK!!!! The trinity is no where in scripture it is purely the doctrine of man. Sorry for replying with sarcasm but you did tee it up, bro. We know that it can’t mean Yeshua is actually Yahweh because verse 18 states, plainly, that nobody has ever seen God. You only have forgiveness of sins if you confess that Jesus is the Son of God. Now I’ve played a little defense. 1st John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 22:8,9, you will discover this angel is a Prophet. A messenger or a Messiah. And a bunch of other people in the Bible. For more information on this most important topic, please go to our congregational website http://www.thewordandtheway.net/son-of-god/, “The biggest and most fundamental problem with the doctrine of the Trinity is that its ultimate conclusion is that Jesus did not actually die and was not actually resurrected by the Father…” If one is to believe that Jesus was immortal at the time of His crucifixion, then He sacrificed nothing and his death and resurrection were merely an act or a facade. Can somebody please spoon feed me LOL. NOWHERE!! God gave his son everything. And did you do the reading yet? The Logical Problems of the Trinity. ), 553: Constantinople II (how can we interpret the dual natures w/o dividing Christ into two), 681: Constantinople III (did Christ have one or two wills? Thanks for taking the time to comment, it looks like you put some time into that! The translators put it as he in English and they also capitalize “El” in the Spanish. Couldn’t get any plainer. There are two terms that people use to say that God manifest Himself in several different manners. 1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. Thousands of people saw Yeshua. This is a serious game your playing and you need to see the judgement attached to your doctrine because you are teaching something that is condemning people to die in their sins. Sentence 2: The Father isn’t the Son I haven’t even tried to argue a point yet whether to one side or another, just trying to clear up a misunderstanding that I saw with the terms used. FIFTH: ANOTHER problem with the Trinity Doctrine is that it leaves no room for (and actually does away with) Christ's Actually being "BEGOTTEN" of the Father. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD. We have a page dedicated to the Son of God at our assembly’s website. That doesn’t mean He can’t use agents for this task. No one ever did. It is the same sense that God was with the Hebrews at Sinai. Jesus challenged the belief of how God is one (John 5.16-18; 8.57-58; 10.29-31), he plainly did not agree with Jewish monotheism. It doesn’t say God gave himself it says he gave his only begotten son. When one among them at the council of Nicea dared to disagree with them and their interpretation (Arius) he was pressured and threatened with death. I apologize if my wording, definitions or lack of knowledge have offended you. Did you have a chance to read the first few lines and last few lines of each letter of Paul? they [most Christians] thought they could solve the problem of their celestial mathematics, stating that one plus one plus one is NOT three, but one! That is never said in scripture. The Saviour did not reprove him or check him as using any improper language. We have to plug in meanings to words that aren’t there to come up with the Word being Yeshua. Makes perfect sense when Christ says he can do nothing of himself. If Jesus is not the ONE and ONLY GOD, than there are two of them, and there’s only one. (S3) The Holy Spirit is God. Exodus 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. So is Moses. God-like is the way to go. Maybe you can sympathize with Robert Ingersol who wrote this reflection on the Trinity in The Classics of Free Thought:Christ, according to the faith, is the second person of the Trinity, the Father being the first, and the Holy Ghost the third. And that would not be blasphemy to say that either. there is no place where Jesus redefined how God is one, but there are several texts in which Jesus clearly and explicitly agreed with the 1st c. Jewish doctrine of God’s oneness. Sencence 3: The Father is the Son By reading it directly we really don’t know what it means. Sentence 5: I don’t know what a Unitarian is You always have to start with plain scripture. When you compare Rev. For those who don’t know, the LXX is the most cited version of the Torah in the New Testament. 1. You are a pastor and teach others and you are under a more harsh judgement because you teach others. So they can’t be “one god’. So your topic is not my specialty. The brief reality is… Here are some others. I mean these are just a few, I could go forever but you are right Chris it is IMPOSSIBLE for Yashua to be Yahwey. 22:16 that He sent the OLD Testament Prophet, angel. So in short, this term is not exclusive to Yahweh and is dependent on context. Verses im sure you’ve heard and can explain for me. Now he believed, and gave utterance to his belief, that Jesus was his Lord and his God. It’s a solution—a magnificent, marvelous, glorious, solution. Jesus is our brother (Heb 2:11). US! They aren’t the same. Gods Holy Spirit eminates solely from him or out of him. An examination of the doctrine of the Trinity. 1st John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. The Trinity is such a widely accepted doctrine that it is strange to see it challenged. He didn’t have it any more because of the next point…. It was this declaration, and this only. (Isaiah 9:6) If Jesus is not the Father, than why is he called the Everlasting Father? Now if it said he who believes that Jesus is God I would be with you but its clearly not what the whole Bible gives witness to. Because that’s the foundation for understanding who Yeshua is. (Sorry God cannot die. This is an excellent analysis of the Doctrine of the Trinity. NOT ONE!! In Rev. Believe, Proclaim, and Confess to all and LIVE!!! Thomas didn’t believe Jesus was alive. My Guess: When the antichrist comes claiming to be Jesus, Satan wants him to be viewed as God so that people will have no problem when his actions depart from biblical teaching, also giving him “cart blanche” to dictate new rules or “new scripture”. St. John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. (Colossians 2;9,10) God bless you to hear and receive the truth. Well, he said the LORD GOD of the HOLY PROPHETS sent him. Is it that you don’t understand what I’m saying….. or what you think I’m saying… It gets very confusing saying Yeshua is God, or part of an impossible to comprehend God-concept, yet He prays to God repeatedly throughout scripture. I could write for a while on why using John 1:1-5 as a foundational teaching is really not a good idea, but put simply, we don’t actually have anywhere else to look for similar language to explain those verses. If God says this he is a blantant liar. It is the foundation of the work of the Cross. For discussions about other religions, please fill out the contact form on the about page. The trinity and making Jesus God has all kinds of problems. 1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. At no point does Paul say “Yeshua, God on earth” or any such thing. Is that correct? ACTS 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by(Through,(Check Greek-the word in greek “dia” which means through.) God is composed of three different beings, but one cannot be seen. Jesus said he didn’t know the day or hour of his return though his Father did know it. This scripture says you must believe that Jesus is GODS Son not himself. I mean have you ever considered these scriptures? One cannot sit at the right hand of oneself. where’s the controversy over the three-in-one God? 22:18,19 it is clear that if you add to what is written there, the plagues written in the book will be added to you. What did that Old testament Prophet say in Rev. I hope you will check it out! They were all glad that he was alive. NOT. Acts 9:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God. First of all, it is the Church’s teaching that there is only one God because there is only one Father. One cannot be between us and the Father and be the Father at the same time. He did not always have it. In light of the recent Trinity debate between Dale Tuggy and Michael Brown, I thought it would be apropos to post this video I did a while back. It’s a little unclear as to who sent the angel (Old Testament Prophet) to John, in Rev. It is impossible for Jesus to be Yahwey. Again, the smallest iota of logic dictates that a son is not his own father. So as you can see no one has seen God at anytime, or heard his voice, nor seen his shape. And why know ONE IS ASKING THESE QUESTIONS!!! (Isaiah 43:11) And if Yahaweh (יהוה) is the “I Am,” how can Jesus claim to be the “I Am” unless he is God? The Problem of the Trinity The Mystery The concept of the Trinity was first formulated by St. Augustine in the Nicene Creed in seven statements: 1. Pastor the Trinity is purely a doctrine of man and not of God whatsoever. OOPS. enjoys a prominent place in the creed and, as we shall see, cannot be ignored in a treatment of the logical problem of the Trinity. If God alone the savior of the world, how can Jesus be the savior? Subscribe to the Restitutio email list and we'll send you this e-book for free! That is what the whole conversation is about. My point is that to understand the new testament we need to view it through the lens of the old testament. If you believe that Jesus voluntarily left the Father, voluntarily became man, and voluntarily gave His life – 100% of it, died for our sins, stayed dead for around 72 hours, and was resurrected by the Father, then you don’t believe in the Trinity. You identify the father and Jesus as two different beings that, along with the Holy Spirit, are in accordance and act as one. The Trinity presents a difficult problem for Christians to explain to non-believers. Since the Testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy, Rev. You should check it out and maybe sign up to get our weekly-ish emails of teachings and such. the Trinity is nowhere taught in Scripture, it is only superimposed upon Scripture from later Christian thinkers who were highly influenced by Greek philosophy. ACTS 2:23 Him(Jesus), being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: ACTS 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he(Jesus) should be holden of it. Jesus is not the God of the old testament he is the SON of the GOD of the old testament. If Jesus is God the whole Gospel is false. God cannot die. John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Let’s assume God really is a Trinity and that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit really did reveal themselves as a Trinity in the New Testament. For God is one, and there is one Mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus, (1 Timothy 2:5). It encompasses all aspects of our salvation. This scripture plainly says what the proper witness is that you are supposed to give. YES Chris……Dead ON!! The word behind that in Hebrew is yashaw which is also translated as “Deliverer”. JN 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me. Truth, Truth, Truth!!!! God exalted Yeshua. St. John 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. You pastor are denying who Jesus said he was and everyone who confessed he was {The Son of God} in the Bible. 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